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Post by problematic on Dec 14, 2017 22:23:54 GMT -5
In this thread I'm going to do what very few people do - rip apart the cases for my top guys. Mainly I'm doing this because so few people actually look at things critically when it comes to their favorites, and while I see no problem with that, i am a cultural critic at heart and enjoy the process more if I look at the full spectrum (warts and all) when doing a "ranking" project like this. That said, I am also doing this because I'm really struggling differentiating guys in my top tier. Pretty much anyone I cover in this thread is someone I WILL rank fairly high. in other words this isn't an exercise in talking myself out of ranking someone highly, but rather a tool to try and figure out how the hell to put these guys in any sort of order. Feel free to join me in this endeavor.
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Post by problematic on Dec 15, 2017 0:35:12 GMT -5
First up is the guy I most WANT to rank number one - Fred Yehi
I love Yehi as both a person and a talent, and think in terms of Raw talent he's probably one of the two most gifted wrestlers on the planet. That said it is bothersome to me that I can not think of a single Fred Yehi match this year that feels like a true dramatic moment, a match that has lasting impact and will define 2017 for me when I look back at this year 5 years from now. It is true that I suspect his average match quality is as high or higher than anyone on Earth, and he has some matches that I consider to be worked at the MOTY level, but I can't come up with a single one that packs a punch, fully gripped a crowd at a visceral level, defined a promotions year, et. This would be less problematic for me if it weren't for the fact that he has been booked better this year (at least on scale to last year), so he seemingly should have had a match that hits that level. It's not quite fair to argue that Fred is a consistency over peak candidate, because his peaks are exceptional, but it may be a case where he is a consistency over impact candidate. And impact does matter.
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Post by problematic on Dec 15, 2017 1:20:42 GMT -5
Another one that currently is a lock for my top 5 is Matt Riddle
I outline Riddle's positives at length elsewhere, and I think his argument to be number is actually pretty compelling on multiple grounds. That said, I think it's fair to say that as Riddle has developed more tropes over time, the staples he leans on have become increasingly overplayed. I am one of the biggest advocates around for formula in wrestling, and I've grown more lenient with the fighting spirit style no selling over the years, but I will never love it as a go to spot, and Riddle doing workrate Road Warrior Hawk spots around the invincibility of his neck has hurt my enjoyment of several of his matches this year. You can do a destroyer no sell here and there and I'm fine with it, and I get there is a logic to doing it every time, but it really is a sequence that has virtually no impact after it's been done two or three times. It's hard to call things that get huge pops "bad habits," but there are regular aspects to Riddle matches that run completely counter to my stylistic preferences as a fan. So while I think he has an incredible resume, and a ton of variety to go along with high level matches, at an instinctual level he can be very frustrating. It's not uncommon for me to think he had a good match that could have been very good, or a very good match that could have been great, if not for certain spots that just don't click with me as a regular sequences.
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Post by problematic on Dec 15, 2017 9:36:54 GMT -5
AJ Styles has had a hell of a run at times this year. At his absolute peak he may in fact be the best wrestler on the planet. But then there is the Kevin Owens feud.
I don't want to overstate this too much. I don't think the Owens and AJ matches were terrible. I don't even think they were bad. But for months in the middle of the year AJ Styles was in a feud, with another former indie darling, who ostensibly should have been a good match for him style wise. And for months there feud just sputtered along, dragging down all of AJ's momentum. To make matters worse, Smackdown has been bad for months and months, which means that even AJ's tv match opportunities/output were middling and well below his standard.
As highs go, AJ has a very strong case, but several months of a wildly disappointing feud, and little to praise in the way of output make it tough to call him the top wrestler of the year without some serious hesitation.
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Dec 15, 2017 9:48:20 GMT -5
re: Riddle
He'll probably absolutely be my highest ranked indie guy. Definitely should finish in my Top 10 BUT...
My argument for many months (and I expressed this to many people after the SCI finals) was that he's regressed.
There was something about his 2016 run that was just absolutely special. And if you watched his rise and growth from the very beginning, you felt like you were part of it. And then you discovered the Monster Factory stuff and realized Gabe was making him hold back. So, you had that to look forward to when he'd finally start busting out springboards and other things that you may not have expected from Riddle.
And then he became an indie darling. God bless him. He got the bookings. He took them. He became a "thing".
And then the Canadian Destroyers happened....which may or may not have been when I decided that he was just another guy. An excellent guy. One of the best guys. But still just another indie dude doing his moves.
But he's Matt Riddle and I'll always look back on his 2016 as a special, incredible year. And hope we can get that again one day.
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Post by concrete1992 on Dec 15, 2017 9:53:17 GMT -5
David Starr is going to be my #1 and frankly I find it hard to pick a part his case but I'm going to attempt to bullet point some things. - A staple in his arsenal is a variation of the Canadian Destroyer. I clearly dislike the move and think it goes just enough past what I find tolerable from a pro wrestling move which I think says something. I am more okay with an invisible grenade as at least that is knowingly absurd. I have growned to tolerate the move and just accept it but I don't think it "fits" into Starr's offense too much. Most of what he does feels gritty. Well as gritty as a super indie worker can be. His staple DDT on the apron also isn't great unless sold by Nick Gage.
- Crowd engagement can sometimes be spotty. Getting the crowd into your match is important but at times he can do so at points in the match where urgency should be the goal.
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Post by problematic on Dec 15, 2017 9:55:16 GMT -5
The thing with Riddle is that I actually think the SCI this year is his peak. The Final can be polarizing, but what we saw in the first and second round is what makes the guy special - he has an an energy and vibe to him that can be plugged in against almost any guy, and he does understand how to make things different in a special way when put in the spot to do so. I wish we got more stuff like Riddle v. Gage or Gunner and less Riddle v. other super indie stars, even when I think some of those super indie matches have been excellent. It's weird, because I understand your point in a way, and even agree with it I think, but I think he's also progressed in a way as well - I can't see 2016 Riddle doing death matches, or adapting to the strengths of Gunner Miller to take just two examples fwiw.
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Post by problematic on Dec 15, 2017 10:00:22 GMT -5
David Starr won't be my number one I don't think, but I do think he is a very viable top ten contender.
To me where Starr suffers some is that I think the gap between his WXW work and his work everywhere else is noticeable and difficult to ignore. It's not unlike Trevor Lee in CWF (more on that at some point probably), though I prefer Starr outside of WXW to Lee outside of CWF. Starr in WXW feels like the babyface heart and soul of the company, the rootable underdog. Elsewhere I think the more cocky edge/king of taunts side comes out and I simply don't enjoy that as much. He's also hurt some by the fact that when I saw him live this year it was a decidedly less impressive performance than when I saw him live last year, but I am not at all sure that is his fault.
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Post by concrete1992 on Dec 15, 2017 10:01:56 GMT -5
I want to make a comeback to that but this is the wet blanket thread and not the put Davey Wrestling over thread.
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Dec 15, 2017 10:03:37 GMT -5
Braun Strowman's going to finish in my Top 3.
He also probably has no business being there.
I think he's absolutely the most improved wrestler in the world in 2017. He and Roman are classic rivals who should battle on and off forever with no end. The Big Show run had no business being as good as it was and I think Braun has a lot to do with that. The Big Cass/Big Show series showed that Big Show can't make everyone.
I loved the Royal Rumble, mainly for the Braun portion of the match and highly overrated because I loved it that goddamn much.
Braun clearly needs carried at times and the Kane and Brock programs have done him no favors. So, naturally they're putting all of them in one match in 2018.
It wouldn't surprise me if this, unfortunately, was his "peak" year in-ring because he was new and fresh and caught us all by surprise.
BRAUNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.
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Post by problematic on Dec 15, 2017 10:05:14 GMT -5
Pete Dunne is a guy that has been a home run hitter in the WWE outside of that Enzo match. Just grandslam after grandslam to the point where you could almost make a case that on Peak performance he should be WWE wrestler of the year.
But man the indie stuff hurts him. I get that he's had some good matches on the indies this year as well, but the BSS HHH cosplaying stuff is just so tiresome, and I actually think he is the WORST aspect of that because he's such a strong serious heel on his own that it doesn't behoove him to go slumming with that trash. For a guy like Trent Seven who is exceptionally limited, and basically has to make his entire career on Gavin McInnes inspired hipster douchebaggery (right down to the look), I can almost appreciate it, but it really just comes across as radical laziness in Dunne's case. I can't really BLAME him for going the cheap route as a business move, but it's hard to rank a guy number one when he's got a bunch of matches from the year where he really seems like he simply does not give one fuck. I'm not as high on the Brit indie scene as many as a rule, so I tend to be lower on most of his vaunted singles matches in that climate as well, but BSS is just not appealing as a trios act at all (though I have heard good things about KOT)
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Post by problematic on Dec 15, 2017 10:06:00 GMT -5
I want to make a comeback to that but this is the wet blanket thread and not the put Davey Wrestling over thread. Eh, it's mainly just a thread to collect the counterpoints, I don't see the harm in firing back for discussion purposes.
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Post by problematic on Dec 15, 2017 10:09:34 GMT -5
Braun Strowman's going to finish in my Top 3. He also probably has no business being there. I think he's absolutely the most improved wrestler in the world in 2017. He and Roman are classic rivals who should battle on and off forever with no end. The Big Show run had no business being as good as it was and I think Braun has a lot to do with that. The Big Cass/Big Show series showed that Big Show can't make everyone. I loved the Royal Rumble, mainly for the Braun portion of the match and highly overrated because I loved it that goddamn much. Braun clearly needs carried at times and the Kane and Brock programs have done him no favors. So, naturally they're putting all of them in one match in 2018. It wouldn't surprise me if this, unfortunately, was his "peak" year in-ring because he was new and fresh and caught us all by surprise. BRAUNNNNNNNNNNNNNN. My own take on Braun - great wrestler, super exciting to watch him burst on the scene, but Brock politically assassinated him and he's not recovered. Braun was a guy I would have entertained as a number 1 contender, at least in a fringey way, up until the Brock match. Brock sandbagged him and/or nearly died 3 mins in killing the match, and since then while Braun has had some good tv matches, he's been involved in a string of ppv matches that I think have been bad, and now a go nowhere, low energy, Kane feud. He has had a great year all together, but he's finished on a string of disappointment that has spanned multiple months, and I'm not sure he has Peaks strong enough to offset that.
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Post by bossrock on Dec 15, 2017 10:15:06 GMT -5
AJ Styles has had a hell of a run at times this year. At his absolute peak he may in fact be the best wrestler on the planet. But then there is the Kevin Owens feud. I don't want to overstate this too much. I don't think the Owens and AJ matches were terrible. I don't even think they were bad. But for months in the middle of the year AJ Styles was in a feud, with another former indie darling, who ostensibly should have been a good match for him style wise. And for months there feud just sputtered along, dragging down all of AJ's momentum. To make matters worse, Smackdown has been bad for months and months, which means that even AJ's tv match opportunities/output were middling and well below his standard. As highs go, AJ has a very strong case, but several months of a wildly disappointing feud, and little to praise in the way of output make it tough to call him the top wrestler of the year without some serious hesitation. I pretty much agree with all of this. I liked the Backlash and Summerslam matches but as a whole, the feud killed a great deal of A.J's momentum. He'll still most likely rank in my top 10 based on his awesome first quarter and the performances he's had since Owens, but definitely in the latter half.
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Post by concrete1992 on Dec 15, 2017 10:17:25 GMT -5
David Starr in my mind has two promotions that count towards his best work with the other being Beyond. wXw has the WALTER series which of course makes it the best place for his best work and best character. He is the most natural babyface on the planet and that's where he shows it. In Beyond, he is at his peak cocky Starr. Not as good as babyface Starr but still pretty great. He started the year near the top of the card having tremendous stuff with Janela, got moved down into some rad sprints and now he's been worked back up putting on doozies leading into the Janela match which unfortunately looks to be placed specifically in 2018.
More me saying that I think Starr has at least two promotions worth of top work. Though admittedly, with all the wrestling he has done this year he does have a LOT of stuff that doesn't feel like it matters in the grand scheme of the promotion. He's worked a lot in the UK scene and I'm not sure he has anything engrossing happening in any of them despite wrestling at least a half dozen matches for 5 of them. Still putting on good performances but nothing to cling to like he has in his two main promotions. Welp, I guess I can agree if I expand the promotion list to two.
Keith Lee will be high for me but I find him too giving at times with the smaller opposition that often presents itself. Also felt like his big man spotfests can come off as self indulgent. When Lee can work a match with a clear story he comes off as a completely different animal, an undeniable presence. When he has "just a match" it can still be good but often seems to be more about the gifs than building a match with a good flow.
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